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Mankind Project would be laudible in its aims if its practices were not so dangerous and abusive. In using amateurs to practice psychotherapy upon unsuspecting and vulnerable men it is laying itself open to gross malpractice - ah - but men are required to sign an injury disclaimer before attending. But it takes about four years for a medical surgeon to become qualified; it takes seven years for a psychotherapist / psychologist to become qualified. Yet MKP thinks that it can train its staff in psychotherapy in a weekend. The appalling suicide mentioned in the above report is but one of a number that have been mentioned on the various forums. MKP is like the very worst of the now illegal hazing fraternities. I know of other men who have had to receive professional counselling for years after attending just one weekend with MKP. The secrecy surrounding its practices are necessary because no sane man would ever pay top dollars and volunteer to be subjected to the appalling abuse (sleep deprivation, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse, food deprivation, extreme cold, removal of medications, etc.) that is meted out to participants on the New Warrior Training Weekends. Many of these weekends are held at Christian Camps, Kiwanis, etc., all of whom organisations I suspect haven't a clue as to what will be going on. And having screwed up vulnerable men's minds MKP spits them out and then fails to suppport them when they have re-entry problems into the everyday world. And sadly MKP is a world wide organsiation which like a cancer has spread into schools and prisons. Thank you for your in-depth report. SB.

Comment by S Byers — October 4, 2007 @ 05:39AM

Chris Vogel, great article! I suggest you look into the EST (Ernhard Seminars Training) and Sterling Institute backgrounds of the founders of MKP.

Comment by Chris — October 4, 2007 @ 10:45AM

Any humane person can have nothing but compassion for the Scintos on the loss of their son. That they wish to blame some outside group for this is understandable. Goodness knows that Texan men with drug and alcohol problems have never used guns or drugs to harm themselves before, and I am certain that this lawsuit will solve everyone's problems forever, as MKP failed to. If only young Michael had found Jesus, the way my own brother did the morning when HE killed himself.

Comment by Rory Bowman — October 4, 2007 @ 04:33PM

I am so sorry for this family but they should not try and blame the MKP for their sons problems. My experience was one of the best things I have ever done in my recovery and in my life. I could leave at any time I wanted and one guy did leave on our weekend. That was fine. There was never anything sexual and it was a very healing weekend.

Comment by Mark ANDERSON — October 5, 2007 @ 06:21AM

From a completely outside perspective, the author appears to be very biased and not too interested in reporting anything fair or balanced. That said, if MKP is this horrible organization doing all these awful things, the question must be asked - and a glaring omissing from this story imho - "to what end are they doing this?" Monetary gain? World domination? Sadistic thrills? And where is the logical comparison, in this report, to other institutions where men go through extremem physical and emtional stress during some for of extended training / initiation ritual .. say .. basic training for the military? Are parents suing the Marines for damage done to their sons during basic? Is the HoustonPress reporting it?

Comment by Jim Stinson — October 5, 2007 @ 10:07AM

Because of the Mankind Project: I have reunited with my family, learned how to feel and express feelings, discover much about myself and I now have close friends that are men I can trust - something new for me. It is not the practice of psychology any more than any support group. It is about men being real with each other. It is about self-discovery. One of the guidelines that have always been emphasized every time I have been with MKP is that any man can pass. That includes leaving the weekend and I have seen men leave many times. I do not lie to or miss lead anyone about what goes on at New Warrior training. The men of this organization model compassion, integrity and citizenship for me. Chris, you really got this story wrong. I am proud to be part of sponsoring the first New Orleans New Warrior Training Adventure October 26, 2007. I judge that it important to the healing of my city.

Comment by H Lowenburg — October 5, 2007 @ 02:45PM

My heart goes out to the parents of this man. I can't imagine many losses as painful as the suicide death of one's child. I can also understand wanting to blame someone else for his death; I would probably want to do the same, at least initially.

Unfortunately, this man's parents have chosen to attack an organization that has helped tens of thousands of men around the world and which I seriously doubt had anything to do with their son's choice to kill himself. I am not a member of MKP but I have known several men who have derived tremendous benefit from the New Warrior Weekend and their involvement in the organization's weekly men's groups.

I've talked with a few of these men about this article and to a man they report that none of the claims made by the parents or the reporter are true. For example, all but one indicated that they each knew of at least one man who left the weekend training within the first 24 hours. They never heard any threats being made and in fact remarked on the compassion and support given to the men who left by the MKP staff members.

All the men also emphasized that it is made very clear to the participants that the weekend experience is not therapy and men that are seeing a psychologist or other mental health professional are told that they should talk about their experience with their therapist and should not change anything about their treatment.

Getting back to the article itself, I can't help thinking that this newspaper reporter has decided to make a name for himself by crafting a sensational tale of injustice and abuse and selling it to the public as legitimate investigative journalism.

The reporter's sensationalized prose reeks of bias and pandering to the public's fascination with cults. It seems to me that he has--rather skillfully--distorted events, omitted crucial information, ascribed motives to others without evidence, and packaged it all in a compelling narrative.

I can't believe the Houston Press published such a biased article.

But then again, I understand that many newspapers, desperate to remain solvent amid rapidly declining subscriber rolls, have chosen to go the way of the tabloids and focus on what sells: sensationalism and tall tales. In this case, the death of a man is agonizingly true but the cause as described in the parents' lawsuit and this piece of hack journalism will probably prove to be pure fiction.

It's easy to point a finger at a men's organization that incorporates rites of passage and group processes that don't jibe with America's puritanical bent. It's much more difficult to understand the multiple factors that lead to a person's decision to kill himself and the steps friends and family can take to prevent suicide and to cope with the aftereffects if it has already happened.

Comment by Joey Johansen — October 5, 2007 @ 05:40PM

I'm a Northern California New Warrior who did my weekend in September of 04. I'm involved with staffing, I-Groups, and supplemental trainings, and take great pride in the work I've done and the signicant changes I've seen in men as a part of this organization. I feel terrible for Michael Scinto and his family; I stand by the overwhelmingly positive attributes of the NWTA and MKP in general, however.

A couple of things to remember: men's initiation rituals have been secret since their inception, thousands of years ago. There's power in it. I've never seen or experienced anything creepy or untoward going on in an NWTA.

My brother killed himself nine years ago, after a long history of depression and substance abuse. What happened in the weeks leading up to his death probably had little to do with his overall decision. I believe this applies to the situation in this story.

Also, as a journalist myself, I judge much of this article was written with hearsay, and as a member of an NWTA staff myself I believe some of it was misreported.

My condolences to the man's family. I don't believe MKP was liable for his death, however.

Comment by Colin — October 5, 2007 @ 08:49PM

If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality?

It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men.

Real men do not need Warrior Weekends.

Comment by Anonymous — October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM

MKP has flaws. The initiate weekend is certainly full of strange and uncomfortable experiences. (It supposed to be!)Before you participate you are certainly given the choice to leave. Once you
begin the weekend you still can leave but the agreement is that you will be grilled before
you do since you were asked prior and warned prior not to enter unless you have the desire, guts and the integrity to go through with it. There are many men like this who should not show-up at all and should have been screened out since they tend to diminish the weekend for other men who show-up to face the ugly realities of their lives- one of which is the anger men in this society carry daily in suffocation and addiction while vicariously experiencing it through movies and sport.
This critique is comical- especially when we as a nation train thousands of young men to be killers in our armed forces, stupid unenlightened killers. I was one once. The rituals in the armed services are as strange as MKP's. But the objectives are very different. The US government doesn't seek to make one more aware, caring, compassionate and mature as MKP's goals seek- just the opposite, at much more than $650, that we pay for as taxpayers.
This person would most likely have whined his way out of Marine boot camp too. He would have gone through hell if he had and nothing would be made of it.
Please........

Comment by Sean — October 6, 2007 @ 08:13AM

Folks interested in this article and the ensuing debate should know that the Houston Press also has a blog where you can read and post comments:

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/houstoned/2007/10/cover_story_the_mankind_projec.php

Joey

Comment by Joey Johansen — October 6, 2007 @ 08:37AM

My heart goes out to the Scinto's--the parents of Michael Scinto who took his own life. I wish to share some of my thoughts and experiences. I went through the Mankind Project training in 2005. Prior to that, I had worked with a dozen or so therapists since the early 1970's to recover from years of abuse from a sadistic father--abuse allowed by an unstable mother. My work with MKP was an important part of healing from my past--healing which continues to this day.
My experience of MKP has been nothing but positive. I felt safe during my weekend experience and indeed confronted many of my "demons" during the weekend in ways I could never have done in a therpist's office. I took many steps forward during that weekend and afterward. Certain kinds of healing cannot be achieved in a therapist's office but can more effectively be accomplished in the presence and power of a group of supportive men.
It is natural for Michael Scinto's parents to want to blame someone or something else for the death of their son. Instead of, or in additon to suing MKP, I hope the parents will do the most difficult of tasks--examine themselves as parents and examine their roles in causing their son's pain, for Michael's pain began long before he ever even heard of Mankind Project. The Houston reporter should've investigate how Michael Scinto was parented. The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.

Comment by Paul G — October 6, 2007 @ 08:49AM

I attended an MKP initiation in 2003 in Madisonville, Tx. Yes you are greeted by men in dark robes and they take away your personal belongings. You are also warned in the what to bring flyer that this will occur. In the first hour of my initiation a young man cracked and decided to leave. He was not threatened in any way and all that the men who were leading the initiation asked of him in front of all to see was that he be accountable and share the truth as to why he would not continue. He then left without questions. Yes we were deprived of food until the feast. We were given granola and fruit, lots of water, and we were not limited on the quantity of either. It is called in other cultures, FASTING, nothing to be frightened of. We were forced to do things as part of the process, however never did I feel in danger of being hurt or losing my life. Out of my comfort zone, yes, however the entire weekend was about breaking out of the comfort zone, which is artificial, and tends to numb us all. I feel for the family that lost their son. It is terrible that he was not screened out by his sponsor who invited him. God bless his family and the terrible guilt they must feel. However in my experience I never felt like I was part of a "Hazing". I went to College Prep in New England area, trust me I knew what it felt like. As far as the question of competency of the MKP members that were running the event, I have never come across a larger group of truely compassionate people. Being that I was sponsored by a local Houston man, I knew absolutely nothing of anyone, except for my sponsor. I trusted his judgement that I would be safe. Being a warrior in life is all about learning to walk in peace in a world that is full of danger. Nothing in this world is guaranteed. Bad things happen to good people all of the time. Terrible things happen to people in the offices of licensed therapists. Doctors kill more people than guns. The statistics speak for themselves. We cannot outlaw doctors merely because there are bad ones, can we? People must learn to be accountable for themselves and not believe that they must be taken care of by their government or by their parents. Hurricane Katrina was a tragic example of this. What has happened to our sense of community among our fellow citizens? A bit of compassion for each other, a random act of kindness each day, can make the world a better place. That is what MKP teaches.

Comment by Matthew Owens — October 6, 2007 @ 03:06PM

damn, from all the comments this group is a bit bigger than I imagined. I think if MKP had responded to the interviewer, they could have maybe gotten a better take on both sides of the story, but alas, they didn't seem too willing to talk about much. Pretty damn strange, but whatever floats your boat. Touch your neighbor's dick! Priceless. I would have been out long before that, but man, that woudl have definitely made me run for the hills. Plus, I never go anywhere where I don't have an "out", I take my car or definitely have a trusted ride.

May your jimmies hang low and graze the ground. Pass the wood cock!

Comment by William Greene Comma Billy — October 6, 2007 @ 07:08PM

I was very disappointed with this highly-sensational article on the Warrior weekend, starting with the title "Naked Men."

The out-of-context description of the activities of the weekend does a great disservice to this work. Consider how a Sunday at a Catholic Mass might sound, with a similar hack job.

People were kneeling and chanting before a man wearing a skirt. They blew choking smoke around the room. The man in the skirt gave people human flesh to eat and blood to drink. He then doused an infant with water, producing screams of terror. You get the idea.

Comment by T.J. Smith — October 6, 2007 @ 07:51PM

I did the weekend in 1995. My experience was very different from what is described in this article.

I was in a 12 step program before I went, but no one from that program pressured me to attend. My therapist suggested it after a couple of years of group therapy. When I got there I was surprised to see a bunch of men I knew from 12 step staffing the weekend and working at the lodge.

When they say it isn't psychotherapy, I think they are correct. The weekend is a true initiation, in the ancient "joining the tribe" or "becoming a man" sense. Anyone interested in attending probably ought to research how those work. I had been looking for something like that since high school, so I welcomed the New Warrior experience. It was scary, difficult and challenging, but I felt safe the entire time I was there. Men are free to leave at any point. No one was going to kill anyone.

I later staffed a weekend and saw how hard they work to keep the men safe.

I was told to carpool so I would be with other initiates for the ride home, not because of a lack of parking. That gave us time to talk about the experience and bond. Our carpool group was in the integration group, so we kept seeing each other for the next few months.

When it was over, my deep fear of other men was gone. In its place was compassion, trust and love. It changed my life for the better. Maybe New Warrior has changed since I did the weekend. I could see the potential for for that after I did the weekend. They employed many of the same techniques used to indoctrinate people into cults. They lacked a charismatic leader and some other aspects of cults, but the potential for abuse was there.

Maybe they really harmed Michael Scinto. I hope not, because it would be sad if men no longer had the opportunity to do this work.

Comment by Anonymous — October 6, 2007 @ 09:00PM

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Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM:

If this organization is so great, why is it so secretive? Why all of the waivers and agreements for confidentiality?
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Hmmmm. I imagine for the same reasons that I have to sign lengthy agreements when my kids play soccer. Or when I sign up for a site on the Internet or download some free software. Have you read any of those "Terms of Service?!"

I saw the form MKP requires on a website and it's frankly a lot more straightforward and shorter than many such documents. It also makes it clear what a man is responsible for, e.g., that and other MKP documents make it clear that if a man believes he is unstable or ill-prepared for an intensive men's weekend that he should not attend. At least that's my reading of it.

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Anonymous wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 06:15AM:

It is a scam and income tax evasion scheme. It's also illegal hazing and illegal group therapy. Its leaders use the group to further their outside careers, sales contacts, professional networking, all to put money in their pockets, at the financial and emotional expense of immature men.

Real men do not need Warrior Weekends.
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Thank you Judge Anonymous! You seem to have reached some very confident conclusions based on your thorough research of the organization.

Seriously, what do you base your accusations on? What evidence exists that "income tax evasion" is a motive? How does the law define "illegal group therapy" and how did (does) MKP violate it? And on what do you base your assertion that men who attend the MKP weekend are "immature" unlike "real" men like yourself? Have you actually met and talked with men in MKP?

Comment by Joey Johansen — October 6, 2007 @ 10:27PM

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Paul G wrote the following on October 6, 2007 @ 08:49AM

... The quote at end of the article is telling, but to me in a different way: "They murdered his spirit. It was the worst kind of murder." Anyone who has studied Swiss psycho-analyst's Alice Miller's works will understand that the murder of a person's Spirit begins with the parents.
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I don't think this is a fair accusation to make. It's really not different from the accusations the author of the HP article makes. Neither your (Paul G's) nor the reporter's accusations are supported by convincing evidence and they are both biased. You *assume* that Mr. Scinto's parents caused a good portion of his troubles but you have no evidence upon which to base such a conclusion.

May I suggest that perhaps you are "projecting" your own experience onto Mr. Scinto and his parents?

Also, talk to a few people who have had a family member commit suicide before you make such assumptions. I know three friends who have lost a family member to suicide and they have each experienced tremendous guilt about what they could have done differently to (in their mind) prevent their loved one's suicide.

However, as each of my three friends progressed through therapy and/or support groups, as they prayed and talked with their minister or rabbi, as they talked with friends, they came to see that the suicide was not their fault. It was a choice their loved one made and that person is the only one to "blame" if one is inclined to assign blame at all. None of my friends chose that option; they each came to the conclusion that the "blame game" was an understandable attempt to find a focus for their anger and overwhelming sadness but that ultimately it primarily served to freeze their emotional anguish.

Although having some relief from the relentless waves of grinding grief felt good for awhile they eventually recognized that they were simply using blame to forestall the deep, all-consuming sadness that they felt. Once they let go of the need to blame they did indeed experience several weeks during which waves of suffocating sorrow nearly immobilized them. But, as they let the sadness flow, they gradually found themselves accepting the loss of their loved one. They forgave him (in all three instances it was a male family member) and they forgave themselves.

Comment by Joey Johansen — October 6, 2007 @ 10:58PM

Very poor reporting. No context is offered for the retreat items mentioned (which the reporter should have been able to give if he does indeed have the protocols). He says Scott Cole is the executive director--he hasn't been nearly two years. He bases most of his criticism on folks from Rick Ross's webpage, without asking what their own biases might be. He never asks what things Michael Scinto might have been diagnosed with before the Warrior weekend.

I went. I could offer criticisms of the event, but I don't think that could be done fairly in this context. On the Rick Ross forums, anyone who mentions anything positive about their experience is shouted down. As to the "Naked men beating cooked chickens with a hammer"--this is something that happens at the end, which is clearly a moment where the leaders poke fun at much of the whole weekend. That seems healthy, to me.

As to one commenter's suggestion that people learn psychotherapy in a weekend--no. Initiates are invited to come back and staff, but it takes many staffings, and much additional training, before anyone is put in a position of leader.

There's no talk in this article about why people might go on this; what are the needs of male initiation today, what are men looking for, how might a man seek integrity with himself, accountability with his brothers, overcoming wounds from fractured relationships with fathers.

As to secret rituals--what about those initiation rites done by Masons and the Knights of Columbus. Ask the latter about their use of a human skull and bones. Ask about their commitment to secrecy.

Comment by ABC — October 7, 2007 @ 11:26AM

I am saddened by this man's suicide and grieve for his loved ones and family. I have been involved with MKP for 5 years and it has been a positive force in my life; helping me to me the man I want to be and live a life of integrity. The weekend is meant to "shake things up", but the portrayal in this article is a clear distortion, especially the supposedly coercive aspects. It also fails to mention the very positive impact that the community continues to have long after we have finished the weekend initiation, which only lasts for 2 days.

Comment by Josh Harben — October 8, 2007 @ 09:05AM

I am very sorry for the man's family. At the same time, it is truly unfortunate and irresponsible to blame the Warriors for this man's death. Obviously, he was a very troubled man--and the Warriors failed to save him from his demons. This is not to say it is the Warriors' fault that he is dead. I suppose one could go back over the past few months and find many people and experiences that adversely affected him. Are we to sue all of them for his death?

Comment by Mark Jones — October 8, 2007 @ 09:52AM

I was greatly disappointed by this article. The writer's sensationalist treatment of the rituals show exactly why they are secret. Taken out of context, they seem bizarre, cultish, and even nutty. In their proper context, they are part of a deeply moving and meaningful experience.

Comment by Mark Jones — October 8, 2007 @ 10:02AM

My heartfelt sympathy and condolences to the family and friends of Michael Scinto.
I know many men who have participated in the MKP weekend and, for them, it has been a life-affirming experience. Although I agree with some of the concerns raised in Mr. Vogel's, I found the majority of the comments biased, exagerated and ignorant of the reality of the process.
The men I know who are involved with MKP are not perfect. But they are sincere. It is not a cult. It is a community.

Comment by Susan Dancy — October 8, 2007 @ 11:26AM

"Michael Scinto was literally scared to death."

Yellow journalism at its worst. Shame on you, Houston Press.

Comment by Susan Dancy — October 8, 2007 @ 12:42PM

"Michael Scinto was literally scared to death."

Yellow journalism at its worst. Shame on you, Houston Press.

Comment by Susan Dancy — October 8, 2007 @ 12:42PM

Too much opportunity for blackmail. Either overt or covert.

Comment by anonymous — October 8, 2007 @ 06:55PM

After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served.

Comment by Derrick & Shelley — October 8, 2007 @ 08:24PM

Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door.

Comment by Frances — October 8, 2007 @ 10:41PM

This "Mary" has never been to a weekend and therefore has very distorted view of it. I can't believe the Houston Press would run one-source story. For the vast majority of the men who go through the weekend, it's quite thearputic. The fact that her son is off drugs is something she should be grateful for and she doesn't seem to want to give any credit to this fact that perhaps the weekend worked for him. I've been to one weekend and have staffed another. The weekend is not intended to make your comfortable. It's intended to push you to make a breakthrough, and breakthroughs are never comfortable, change is never comfortable. The comment about guys grabbing each other's dicks in the sweat lodge is an absolute fabrication. Trust me, if that kind of shit was happening every weekend, to over 4000 men around the world, do you really think men would invite other men to such a weekend? Do you think this organization would be around for 23 years? Use your head.

Comment by Derek Dujardin — October 9, 2007 @ 08:58AM

So, you folks who are so impressed with this fellow's research ...

Why didn't he discover that Scott Cole hasn't been executive director for nearly two years?

Why didn't he discover that Mel Taylor isn't merely a member, but is chairman of the board of the Mankind Project, Houston?

These seem to be basic facts. He missed them.

Comment by ABC — October 9, 2007 @ 09:58AM

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Derrick & Shelley wrote on October 8, 2007 @ 08:24PM:

After reading this article we strrongly believe that this group should be under further investigation. They are preying upon young men who have emotional and physical problems. They are going after easy targets,the ones who are despertly seeking help. Unfortunely a life was lost for this story to be made published. Justice will be served.
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If you base your assumptions and judgments on one source of information, which several readers found to be quite biased, do you really believe you are on solid footing?

Two "facts" in your comment are disputable:

1) The average age of MKP members is probably about 40, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that the organization "preys on young men." (Although I'm sure many of them would be flattered to be called young!)

2) None of the men who I know in MKP (six of them) had "emotional and physical problems" prior to participating in the MKP weekend--at least no more than any other average human being!

You make it sound as if MKP members are lurking around homeless shelters, mental health facilities, and rehabs trying to recruit members!

In addition, it is my understanding that many MKP members who are also recovering addicts/alcoholics recommend that a man have at least one year of sobriety/clean time before participating in the MKP weekend. Of course, a year of sobriety is no guarantee, as was unfortunately the case with Mr. Scinto, but it does suggest that MKP does *not* seek to exploit a man's vulnerability. They aren't stupid; they realize that if they accepted a bunch of guys with severe mental illness that they would open themselves up for criticism and lawsuits. That's why they screen applicants.

As I said earlier, maybe they need to modify the screening procedure--I don't know--but to assume that they are exploiting men is way off base. However, I can see how you got that impression from Mr. Vogel's sensationalized, one-sided article.

Comment by Joey Johansen — October 9, 2007 @ 08:43PM

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Frances wrote on October 8, 2007 @ 10:41PM:

Despite the outcries in the comments, I found this article to be a balanced and focused look at a troubling event. Perhaps not all MKP events are like what Michael Scinto experienced, but even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death and gone a long way toward reassuring the public that the majority of MKP events are not as traumatic. Mr. Vogel's article revealed what can occur when organizations are permitted to operate in the dark, using secrecy, fear, and intimidation to reduce the conversation to whispers. Thank you Mr. Vogel for opening the door.
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How do you know it was balanced? Have you talked with people who found the article to be very biased, to contain several errors, to have relied heavily on a discredited "cult expert," etc.?

You also state, "... even the smallest amount of oversight of the events could have prevented his death ..." How do you know? I don't think you realize how difficult it is to evaluate and accurately predict if a person will commit suicide. The vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts do not act on them. The vast majority of recovering alcoholics/addicts do not commit suicide. The vast majority of individuals suffering from depression do not commit suicide. It is true that each of those three factors increase the risk of suicide but even if a person possesses all three risk factors the odds are much, much greater that he will *not* commit suicide that that he will kill himself.

Another way to look at this issue is if we involuntarily committed every person with suicidal thoughts, alcohol and other drug problems, and/or depression our nation's entire economy would come to a grinding halt because tens of millions of citizens would be locked up on psych wards.

Given how difficult it is to evaluate and predict if a person will commit suicide, how can we expect an organization like MKP to determine with 100% accuracy who will and will not commit suicide after attending an MKP weekend?

If we were to demand such a predictive accuracy, then shouldn't we expect if of all organizations? For example, shouldn't churches and other houses of worship be required to screen all people who attend their services or become members to determine their suicide risk?

Now, I recognize that some of you will object to the comparison by stating that churches don't charge money for their services. That's true to a point, i.e., generally people aren't officially turned away because of a lack of donations. On the other hand, I don't know what your church is like but I don't know many church goers, myself included, who aren't frequently asked for money--from the pulpit, with the collection plate, from the fund raising committee, for the capital campaign, to benefit the scholarship fund, to support the national office, etc. So I'd hardly call churches "free!"

Others might object to my comparison claiming that churches aren't a "personal growth organization" like MKP. My reply to that argument would be: "Really?"

I thought that personal growth, of which spiritual/religious growth is a big part, was one of the main benefits of church involvement. It is for me and I think is for most sincere church members.

(Of course, there are always the "see and be seen" crowd who dress to impress, drum up new business for themselves, pay lip service to the true meaning of their faith, and are non-stop gossips but that's thankfully the minority of religious persons.)

Comment by Joey Johansen — October 9, 2007 @ 09:17PM

I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them. My heart goes out to the Scintos and I pray for them and wish them the best of luck. Please have faith, believe and do not pay attention to all the rude people, but know that there are people out here who do care. Nice job, Vogel....

Comment by Michael — October 10, 2007 @ 10:30AM

"I can't believe some of these comments that people are writing. How can they not have sympathy for this Scinto family? This was a very powerful story and hopefully it will save lives rather than destroy them."
_______________________________________________________________________________________

I have sympathy for the Scinto family and am greatly saddened by the terrible emotional pain they have been through. My comment is that the MKP is an organization of men who, for the most part, seek to make postiive changes, not only in their own lives, but in the world. It is not some secretive cult trying to lure unsuspecting and vunerable men into its evil clutches. It is an organization of men supporting other men in personal growth, intergrity and accountability. The process of the weekend is not about secrecy. It is about confidentiality. Maybe after this tragedy and the publicity around it, some of those "secrets" will be revealed. Will it take some of the magic and mystery away from the experience? Probably. Will it diminish the good work these men are doing? I pray not.

Comment by Susan Dancy — October 10, 2007 @ 10:58AM

I attended a party where most of the men were members of the mkp. I've never seen so many disfunctional men in one place before. They seem to be the ones that don't quite fit into normal society. The mkp is the blind leading the blind. They can be summed up in two words....fruit loops.

Comment by anonymous — October 10, 2007 @ 02:18PM

Warriors.... COME OUT AND PLAAAAAYYYYYY!

CAAAANNNNN YYYYYOOOOUUUUU DIG IT!!!!!

Comment by Anonymous — October 10, 2007 @ 03:51PM

I find it fascinating that Joey Johansen has nothing better to do than comment on every f%$#ing posting. Get a freakin' life.

Comment by anonymous — October 10, 2007 @ 06:43PM

Chris, I thought I'd also post this here. I hope you don't mind.

"Bob" here. I am one of the men Mr.Chris Vogel contacted. I gave him permission to share my experience with MKP and my recovery program.

Years ago my wife "Cathy" and I thought we had made friends with another couple in recovery. We all spent time together. Good times and bad. That all went away when I started to express my concerns about that Warrior Weekend. Yes I got information off the internet. But who doesn't these days ? I also got back-up information from human sources.

I was told I wasn't ready for the Weekend. It wasn't for me. But I was also told that I had wounds and Shadow Work to do. A lot to do by their count. I was angry but two people I love dearly, my wife and my recovery sponsor made comments to me that snapped me right out of my self-centeredness and help put me back on track with my program. From my wife one day:

"Why are you angry ? You're still alive and sober."

From my sponsor: "Tradition number 10" It reads " Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside matters; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy"

Our middle son has come back in to his recovery program. Today, he is alive and sober. I can't imagine a child of mine killing themself regardless of the reasons. Our hearts and prayers go out to Michael's family.

Warm regards,

"Bob"

Comment by Bob — October 10, 2007 @ 07:26PM

I was not there on the Houston weekend, so I cannot speak for them; however, I can say that of all the men that I know in MKP, they all live their lives from their integrity and are committed to improving their lives and their communities. Experiencing the NWTA was one of the most powerful things I have done in my life. An issue that had plagued me for 13 years was removed that weekend and has allowed me to live an incredibly joy filled life. Is the weekend intense? Yes it is. And it was because it was intense that enabled my healing to happen. Is it perfect? No. Is there anything I would change? Yes. I had a man on my weekend joke about what was going to happen during the next exercise (his statement was not true, and I felt he was just trying to screw with my head). I have read the MKP protocols and they are about creating a safe space so that men feel safe enough to look at the issues that plague their life and I want to challenge any staff men to adhere to them and not to put in their sideways comments that they think are funny, because we never know the effect that those comments will have on another human being. That being said, I would still recommend it to any recovery minded person who has been on his recovery path for at least 2 or 3 years. I would like to add that I do not believe that any one single event would cause a person to commit suicide, that it would take years of feeling that one was in a hopeless situation to come to that point. I would at this point like to say that that does not diminish how his family feels and that my thoughts and prayers are with them through this incredibly trying time.

Comment by Tim — October 10, 2007 @ 09:59PM

I just completed (10/07) the Gateway Weekend of the New Warrior Training, the weekend for mostly gay, bi & questioning men, though hetero men also attend. It was a traumatic weekend for me. The methods of MKP are not for everyone. Yet 26 of the 27 men who attended seemed to have a meaningful powerful weekend. The description of the weekend in the article is basically accurate, though I didn't see or experience everything mentioned. Out of context or not, it paints a general picture that's more accurate than not.
I could have left if I wanted and felt no pressure to stay. I wanted to understand what they kept promising would be revealed. I didn't. Oh, and I didn't have my car.
During my time of prolonged physical and psychological discomfort, I wondered if I would need therapy to recover from the weekend. Now, safe at home, I don't think I will. I came to the weekend with reasonable skills at knowing my limits, asking for what I want, and setting boundaries. Many men attend these type of events because they don't have these skills.
Articles like this are difficult. It focuses on a few bad cases and then talks about a few good cases, like 50% like it and 50% don't, but that's not really the case. The problem is that the container that the MKP creates to do its work can't contain (or perhaps even recognize) the problems when they come up. They aren't set up for the exceptional situation.
The MKP could be right for some men. It was not right for me. If it doesn't sound right to you, don't go. There's better stuff out there. I am discouraging most of my friends from going.
(As a side note: what's pagan about being in the woods naked? It's like saying Christians like war.)

Comment by Reversable Goldfish — October 11, 2007 @ 12:54AM

Having done the Warrior weekend in Aug. of 2005, I can say that our weekend ABSOLUTELY did not include many things mentioned in this article. The organization asked many questions in my application and they were always concerned with everyone's well being. Before any strenuous events, everyone was asked if they felt they could handle the task at hand.

This is not for everyone, but what is?

The weekend was very challenging for me...mentally and emotionally. However, I always felt they were there for me. I got more from the MKP than my $185/hr therapist ever offered. And I bet my therapist would not be there for me if I needed real help. My brothers would, and have without a question.

I would bet my life that NO therapist has had the learning experiences had by the staff with men opening up like they did at MKP. I would never feel comfortable sharing my darkest with my therapist. That takes TRUST.

The staff and members of MKP give much of their time beyond normal meetings. It is a very giving and strong group. I owe them alot.

My hope is that the family that lost a child can focus its energy on a way to make a positive difference. This is not the way.

Comment by Vincent — October 11, 2007 @ 02:36PM

I wanted to add the most important part to my last ramble #41:

My heart goes out to the family and my prayers are with them. With this exposure, if anything needs to be changed at MKP...I bet it will.

Comment by Vincent — October 11, 2007 @ 02:44PM

All these comments from different men about their experiences on their Weekend. Then what they each believe to be the truth in this story. Was it the drugs and alcohol ? Was it the trauma he uncovered during the Weekend ? Was this young man mentally unstable ? Maybe the lack of training on the part of the Weekend's staff. No one will ever know.

The real tragedy of this story is that this suicide was a well known secrete inside certain MKP circles. It was known to a lesser extent outside MKP. Inside, some questions were asked about a death rumour involving a member. Do you think the truth was told ? What does MKP say about Accountability ?

I put some distance between myself and MKP because of the increasing demands on my time away from my family. It was also getting expensive. I maintain contact with a few men from my I-Group. I've learned that I can see the forest now and not just the trees. Today I believe that the tragedy (crime ?) was in their denial (cover-up ?).

This seems to be today's acceptable response by others in positions of power. Just ask Scooter Libby and the former C.E.O. of Tyco. What got them in the slammer was not their actions or crimes, but their denials and cover-ups. There is a lesson to be learned here. Is MKP listening ?

Comment by Craw F. — October 11, 2007 @ 08:12PM

Dear anonymous,

After reading the sum total wisdom of your comments, you would do well to listen to a man like Joey.

Of course, listening is much harder for a real man.

Comment by Rich M — October 11, 2007 @ 08:20PM

I read with interest the article in the Houston Press regarding Michael Scinto and the Mankind Project. I have known the Scinto family for 30 years and am still very close friends with Michael's mother, Kathy. The article was very well written and having known Michael and his family, know that Michael was definitely a changed person after having attending the weekend with the Mankind Project. It is very sad indeed that Michael's life ended so abruptly and that his family will have to live with his absence for the rest of their lives. My children and the Scinto children grew up together in Katy, Texas. They swam on swim team together. Kathy Scinto was my daughter's Brownie Leader. My heart continues to feel the grief and heartache the Scintos are going through. Kudos to Chris for writing such a factual article detailing the horrible experience Michael was put through prior to his untimely death.

Comment by Dianne Hammonds — October 14, 2007 @ 05:38PM

Chris,
My heartfelt condolences go out to the family of Michael Scinto. While it is very unfortunate to read of this tragedy you have to wonder how many men’s lives MKP has helped save. Mine is one and I know I am not alone. This situation reminds me to consider a hospital setting where thousands of lives are saved or improved but that is certainly not always the case. It reminds me of cases where school districts are involved in lawsuits because they are put in a position of parent in the absence thereof. My point is that we should not throw the baby out with the bath water by implying that MKP or hospitals or schools are inherently bad because they are not perfect. Life is not perfect, and MKP is trying to save men that have gone astray in an imperfect life. We can shoot arrows at anything I suppose, but why focus on organizations that are about trying to improve the world one person at a time?

Matt

Comment by Matt — October 15, 2007 @ 07:24AM

My Heart goes out to the family of this young man who took his own life. There have been times when I have felt quite depressed and after giving in to drugs and alcohol, was somehow glad to awaken in a painful stupor the next day with the sobering perspective knowing that if I had owned a gun, I would have blown my head off to end the previous night's round of painful self-reflections.

I have been an active member of MKP over the years and am presently inactive. I have seen the MKP weekend and Integration Groups help many men in their respective communities become better brothers, fathers and husbands in the community at large. I had a positive experience during my MKP weekend and felt safe, never threatened; one man left our weekend prematurely and I felt it was under safe circumstances too.

Afterwards, as I integrated the training in my community, I experienced personal issues of mistrust with some MKP brothers and had some shifting integrity issues to deal with in regard to some of my stuff, and some judgements I had towards others. After awhile, I felt I did not wish to be active with the group and was a bit diappointed by the potential of the journey we could have shared together, but did not. Again, my judgements. I feel that overall, MKP is a positive force in the world, given so many unhealthy social alternatives our culture is flooded with.

Comment by Universal Brother — October 15, 2007 @ 07:35PM

I have been a proud member of MKP since 1999, and like Chris Vogel, I am also a journalist, but aside from what I see as poor research, a clear bias, and prose so sensationalistic that it would make Geraldo Rivera wince, one thing that strikes me is the curiously puritanical panic over nudity throughout the piece in what is supposed to be an alternative weekly. I mean, the title of the piece starts off with "Naked Men" as if we all supposed to be shocked, shocked! at the very idea of such, and the word "naked" then shows up eight more times, pejoratively. This, more than anything, shows up the depth of neuroticism in American culture over the human body, across the ideological spectrum, no matter how "progressive" such ostensibly alternative New Times franchises claim to be. That Vogel can not concieve of men getting naked together without imputing sexual transgressions is proof of that. Robert Bly's "Wild Man" is still too radical a notion for a people who are afraid of going through life by actually LIVING it.

Comment by Korry — October 17, 2007 @ 08:39AM

Has anyone considered the following indisputable points:

1. According to the article, MKP has initiated 4,000 men since 1991. I think it is safe to assume that these are often troubled men looking for healing. Just reviewing the comments, many men self-report having found what they were looking for. Aside from the fact that it is highly questionable to suggest that the weekend event was the cause of a relapsing drug and alcohol dependent man's decision to commit suicide, one participant's suicide as compared to the experiences of 4,000 men over a 16 year period does not suggest a problem with the weekend to me. And while Vogel suggests that the weekend constitutes therapy, what is the suicide rate among the clientele of practicing psychologists? Just because someone chooses to commit the difficult to predict act of suicide should not be an indictment on a troubled individual's therapist or the weekend event.

2. I find great irony in the fact that Vogel effectively concludes that the weekend constitutes therapy, and then he chooses to "out" participants in the weekend BY NAME. What purpose was served by outing men participating in a purportedly therapeutic weekend other than to sensationalize the article at these men's expense? The story could have been told without using anyone's name and could have been told with reference only to their professions if Vogel thought that important. If Mr. Vogel found a therapist's client book wouldn't journalistic ethics dictate that he not publish a list of client names. If one of the men Vogel chose to "out" grows despondent because of the false suggestion that he either touched some other man's penis or was similarly touched on the weekend and takes his life, is Vogel responsible for that? Does anyone doubt that the Houston Press's argument would be that the individual was troubled anyway and that the Press is not at fault. I think it was truly shameful and unprofessional to use the names of participants on the weekend. It served no purpose whatsoever. I suggest Vogel reexamine his journalistic integrity.

Comment by Rick — October 18, 2007 @ 06:32PM

"In the story 'Weekend Warriors,' we misidentified the executive director of The ManKind Project Houston. The current executive director is Greg Gondron. The Houston Press regrets the error."

This begs the question then of how diligently did Chris Vogel do his research.

Comment by Korry — October 19, 2007 @ 09:45PM

Oh, let's not be too hard on Mr. Vogel. A lot of very successful reporters basically function as stenographers for their most convenient source. Just look at various "financial reporters" or the White House press corps.

Comment by Rory Bowman — October 20, 2007 @ 09:27AM

Oh, let's not be too hard on Mr. Vogel. A lot of very successful reporters basically function as stenographers for their most convenient source. Just look at various "financial reporters" or the White House press corps.

Comment by Rory Bowman — October 20, 2007 @ 09:27AM

Having done the Warrior Weekend and seen most every man there benefit greatly, as I did as well, it saddens me to see this misinformed attack piece on a group thats core focus--and accomplishment--is the improvement and often salvation of men's lives. While no group is perfect, by and large the intentions of this group as a whole, as well as the intentions of the men as individuals are benevolent to say the least. That said, it isn't for everyone! Some guys just aren't up for it and that's fine. While I am sad for the Scinto family, impugning the entire organization is very misguided. It has produced thousands of initiates who go about their lives in much better ways than they would have had they not attended the weekend. With respect to suicide, I believe the suicide count among those same men would be much much higher had they not had the weekend experience. The organization would do itself well to screen potential initiates better. Having been in a college fraternity I can attest that the initation challenges we went through were FAR SAFER and actually had a healing purpose and effect, rather than mere bonding. Also, for anyone who wishes to know, we were free to leave the premises anytime we wished. Finally, despite the numerous references to nakedness in the article, there was absolutely nothing sexual about the weekend. Very sad that the effect of this article will be to discourage men from attending when the simple fact is that most would benefit. But I suppose in a day and age when recess for children is viewed as exposing them to danger we shouldn't be surprised by the above.

Comment by Brian Davis — October 25, 2007 @ 09:51AM

Let's not forget the men who come back from this weekend and become abusive, verbally or otherwise with their friends and family. This weekend helps men get in touch with anger and men who already have anger problems come back feeling as if this is a good thing. These men are not shown the difference between "aggressiveness" and "assertiveness". They are only shown aggressiveness and how "powerfull" this can make them feel.

No one has mentioned this problem here, nor has it been mentioned the number of men who come back from this weekend who either A. End up leaving their spouses or B. Their spouses end up leaving them.

Comment by Nonya — October 30, 2007 @ 11:31AM

Let's not forget the men who come back from this weekend and become abusive, verbally or otherwise with their friends and family. This weekend helps men get in touch with anger and men who already have anger problems come back feeling as if this is a good thing. These men are not shown the difference between "aggressiveness" and "assertiveness". They are only shown aggressiveness and how "powerfull" this can make them feel.

No one has mentioned this problem here, nor has it been mentioned the number of men who come back from this weekend who either A. End up leaving their spouses or B. Their spouses end up leaving them.

Comment by Nonya — October 30, 2007 @ 11:31AM

The organization, MKP, goes out of its way to stress the difference between being assertive and being aggressive, so Nonya is either 1)uninformed or 2)lying. The marriages that do fall apart were already on the rocks, and it can be stressed that are many instances in which the experience of the weekend actually improved the quality of a marriage. Furthermore, considering the extremely high divorce rate in North America, it is ridiculous to blame it all on a three-day weekend.

Comment by Korry — October 31, 2007 @ 10:54AM

OR...... I am telling the truth and those who are MKP appologist just cannot see that as they "create their own reality". When MKP person's hear something from the "outside" that is not 100% supportive of MKP they either A. Call them liers. or B. Say they don't know what they are talking about.

Comment by Nonya — November 3, 2007 @ 08:39AM

If Nonya's claims had any basis in reality, then scores of wives, girlfriends, children, extended relatives, and neighbors would be coming forward and validating them -- in fact, this organization has been around long enough, with enough members, that by now there would be a mountain of negative evidence and testimonies. The reality is that the majority of the women whose men do this work support the organization. But who am I to second-guess Nonya, since she obviously went through the weekend as well, and attends the men's support groups on a regular basis, not to mention all the staff trainings she has signed up for, in which throughout none of all this do we EVER make the distinction between "assertion" and "aggression," according to Nonya.

Comment by Korry — November 8, 2007 @ 07:35PM

Do a web search for "Mankind Project" there already is a mountian of negative feedback about these clowns. I know first hand what goes on on these weekends and agree they should be shutdown immediately. ALL the claims against them are true while the wishy-washy positives are all just the same comment paraphrased.

Comment by lonnie sweet — November 12, 2007 @ 05:01PM

All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

Comment by Leo Tolstoy — November 17, 2007 @ 07:06AM

I will never forget the day I came into to work and listened to my messages and heard Becky's distraut voice. "Hi Heather, It's Bec. I just wanted you to know Mike's dead. Call me." and she broke down sobbing as she hung up the phone. I immediately called her, the reality, and permanance of it all not yet hitting me. Expecting her to tell me of a car accident I was shocked to find out he had commited suicide. Mike was a great man, a man that strived for beterment of himself. He followed after his father with the strength and humor that he provided to all he knew. To say that he was a troubled man, or that his parents obviously are looking to blame someone else rather than turning the finger on themselves is obsered. Any family who has been through a suicide death always looks to themselves first, what could I have done to stop this, why didn't I see the signs, and so forth. This family is no different. Michael trusted the advice of his AA sponser as so many do, and he attended the weekend, I had never heard of something like this until Michael's death.

I thought the article was very well done, and it attempted to show both sides of the story, unfortunately the people in charge of the "program" were unavaliable to commnet. Why not comment if there was nothing to hide. I am sure they were advised by counsel to stay quiet, but it looks bad. The Scinto family wants to make sure that something like this doesn't happen to someone else. As with anything, any program, any product, there are going to be people that have a possitive experience and those that will not. The issue that I see here, and that I think people are missing is that this program is not run by trained mental health providers, and they are offering the possibility of a mental health benefit. One person's experience may be different from anothers because of their own past history, and the people leading the sessions. The responce to stress is different for everyone, to say that all men should be helped by this, or that they should all react the same is rediculous. To say that there is no way that men were asked to touch eachother if they would like is assinine, you weren't there, you don't know. It makes sense to me that these men would want to keep secrets about the activities they did, while naked, from others because the chances of it being accepted in mainstream society are slim to none. So to all of the past participants of the "program" who claim to not have experienced the naked dancing, or the cock pssing, sure....we believe you.

To those that have been helped by this "program", and support it's activities, more power to you. I hope that you thank God everyday for not having the experience that Mike did. I am sure there are those that were not harmed, that were helped, but Mike was no liar. HE was harmed by this, his experience was different, so instead of making him wrong, and making his family wrong, please try to open yourself up to the possibility that this could have happened, and that it is a very sad thing. You can do that and still support your "program", because after all you didn't have the same experience as he.

This family was hurt, shocked, and damaged by the suicide of Michael. He tried to get help, but was turned away, he was an honest, hard working man, and the workd has lost an assest. God places us all in areas that we are needed, he pulls us "home" when our work is done. Mike was supposed to go through this to open the eyes of those that are trying so hard to look the other direction and not see what is there. There are things going on that need to be changed, and hopefuly because of Mike those things can be changed.

To the Scinto's.....I love you guys! Stay stron in your faith, God will pull you through this, and Mike is looking down smiling at the work you do on his behalf!

Comment by Heather Del Rio — November 30, 2007 @ 08:23AM

I used to be an MKP member. I went through the NWTA back in 1992, before MKP was even founded. The New Warrior Network became the MKP a few years later, apparently for legal reasons (a company inside a company fares legal problems better) but also to show that it wasn't a one-trick-pony type of thing, and to broaden its appeal as well as make it more internationally portable.

When I went through, it was intense, challenging, weird, exhausting, exhilarating, and transformative. I really wonder what sort of person I'd be today if I hadn't done it. I would probably still be very unhappy, timid, and repressed. The experience really was what I needed at the time and for the next 10 years, I was part of it and its weekly meetings, etc.

As years went by though, and more and more people joined, some with complex and off-topic agendas, the whole point of the thing began to get murkier. There was a lot more vying for position, the typical B-S associated with, say, work life, and some really nutty dudes began showing up. I agree that there were people in the training doing stuff that was pretty advanced with trainees that may or may not have been ready for the experience. Most therapists don't get as deep as what happens in the first 1-2 hours at the training. And while it's true to say that perhaps they should, it is also true to say that such an event is no time for amateur hour. There were a couple times when I staffed that I felt that some men in positions of authority in the training were behaving in ways they really should not have been, and treated me or other men there in a way inconsistent with the stated goals of the training, to put it mildly.

What the final straw for me was though was the thorough and seemingly intractable "muddying of the goals" I mentioned before. All sorts of new "protocols" were introduced that were a significant departure from the main focus of the organization as I had experienced it. This is not just the complaint of an old hand who likes things the way he has always seen them; these new exercises and "protocols" were really very controversial to say the least and focused intensely around the examination of ethnic identity issues and racism in society and in one's personal life. Such topics are important and have their place in self-examination, but this was not like adding 5% to something, but more like 50%. And, it was done with no consultation with the membership at large and seemed to be pursued in an aggressive and positively antagonistic way. When I realized that this seemed to be a change that was going to happen with or without my approval or the approval of others at large, I decided it was time for me to move on. I had other issues, too, but this was the biggest one.

Since then, I have had little or no contact with other MKP members, mostly because we have just gone off our own ways in life. Some of the friends I made through MKP agreed with my opinion of things or came to their own similar conclusions and also just "moved on". It was a sad decision to make; I felt like something very important and wonderful, and needed for so many men and their loved ones, was being spoiled. I comforted myself with the realization that all new pursuits, if they are well-received and establish new ways of viewing the world and one's place in society, eventually become institutions (not unlike government, religion, etc.). And all institutions without exception become corrupt-- ie, the reason they are formed eventually gets lost in politics and agendas and soon it exists merely as an end unto itself. No reason to believe this was any exception